[ 00:00:01,080 ]Let’s go!

[ 00:00:22,560 ]Welcome into behind the brand podcast. I’m Adam Hayes over here to my right is Bob Payton, my co-host today. Our guest is Kevin Ling with Loaded Dough Cookie. Welcome, man. Welcome, thanks guys. Yeah, so you weren’t always in the cookie business. What’d you do? How did you get there? Oh, how long you got? We got as long as you want. We can go get the cookies you brought and just eat them while you’re describing it. That would give you time. Nobody can hear what he’s saying because we’re crunching so good. Well, thank you. I started my career really as an environmental health and safety manager and working in automotive manufacturing. It really started out after I left Ball State, where you and I were at the same time. Right.

[ 00:01:09,780 ]We didn’t know each other really. Yeah, were you in the College of Business too? I don’t think so. No, no— it was Natural Resources and Environmental Management. It was some sort of uh environmental management where were a majority of your classes. Steve, I don’t even remember. Yeah. I let that go. It did have a reputation as a party school. That’s all I remember. I have no idea what I took and what I majored in. It was good. I was there. Well. Yeah. And I didn’t really have the, I don’t, I wouldn’t say I had the typical college experience, cause I had my daughter when I was a sophomore in college, pretty much after that point, I drove back and forth every day until I finished my career.

[ 00:01:51,260 ]So I was the one that set up my classes to be as efficient as possible so that I could still work. So I only did Tuesdays and I did Tuesday, Thursday classes. I had a night Tuesday and a night Thursday class. That way I could get a full 15 credit hours every semester on two days per week. And then I could work Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and sometimes weekends. So that was my college experience for the most part. So non-traditional. Very non-traditional. A lot of driving. Probably a lot less expensive. You already had housing, right? Yeah. I was up at 6 and home at about 11 at night. Gas was still cheap in the early 90s. It’s true.

[ 00:02:27,970 ]Yeah, I went to work at a plating company doing some chemical titration stuff in the background to make sure our plating tanks were up to concentration, so that’s no fun to talk about. Um and then I went into uh what I would really say my career was was an environmental health and safety manager for about 15 years across a few different companies and then, and then while I was at a company called Dresser, they were purchased by General Electric. And so, when GE bought us, it was like a whole world. opened up of like, what do you what else you want to do? And I was at a point in my life in my 30s, then where I was like, I want to do some new things.

[ 00:03:05,670 ]And I was getting more curious about entrepreneurship about starting something of my own. And so the new plant manager that came in was like, ‘Hey, we could use somebody that They would take over lean manufacturing for us.’ So it’s kind of difficult when you feel like you’re a little bit of an expert in your field for 15 years, and then you think about jumping into something you know nothing about. So, you know, the competence is dropped to almost nothing, and so confidence goes with it. You’re low, and everyone that knows what you do well now goes I don’t know if he knows what he’s doing. What I knew about, well, I think I’m a, I’m a lifelong learner type person. I’m always curious. I want to learn more.

[ 00:03:48,700 ]I want to learn about more things. So I think that’s what helped me. and I was like, ‘Yeah, this sounds good.’ I was traveling other every other week of my life at the time, and so this was a way to kind of keep it home in one location and learn some new skills. And so, um, I just did it and that was scary. I mean, it’s a transition for any of any of you out there that have like taken a complete pivot into something that you knew you were not an expert at anymore. And um, I did it. I jumped into that. I learned a lot. And that led, 18 months later, to running actually a small part of the business. I say small. It was a $6 million aftermarket business with nine employees.

[ 00:04:28,140 ]And they needed somebody to run that. So I was like, ‘My first P&L.’ And it was a chance to learn about more things in business and finance. And I was getting more interested in those things. Business, then, so that was fun. I learned a lot. Did that. Got my master’s through IU. At the same time, and then I started the cookie business as a side hustle because I wanted to start something. I didn’t know what, but I knew I wanted to start something. So I just kind of opened my brain up to just whatever. And I started walking through stores, and looking in all the aisles, and keeping my notes app on my phone full of thoughts.

[ 00:05:05,470 ]And then watching Shark Tank, and my favorite is the Profit with Markets, and reading Ink Magazine, and Fast Company, and I just started like— then reading or being absorbing as much as possible. And just got more and more into it. And reading books like Scaling Up and others, and getting excited about like this new world of what I want to do. And I did that for months, and I couldn’t find something that was intriguing to me. and then me and my wife were flipping through channels, we we happened to see these cookies on TV, and it was Bobby Flay Throwdown show, yeah and he was this was really the first moment that I didn’t think about it as a business, but this is what led to it.

[ 00:05:50,810 ]We were watching that show, and he he was trying to beat someone else at their own game, and he had interviewed these women in New York City at Levain Bakery, and they I do triathlons and so they were they had a bakery and they were training for an Iron Man, so that gave them the idea to create a cookie that had like a thousand calories in it, so that they had enough to like right you know train yeah right like enough calories to train and that’s the best calories right sugar and chocolate That’s the best tasting. Best tasting, not nutrition. So I just got absorbed into the episode because I had so many things that resonated with me, you know, not cookies.

[ 00:06:31,090 ]The time really just the business and that they did triathlons and it was cool to see the story and anyway their cookies were obviously voted way better than his so he got he’s got his butt beat in that show but it got me interested interested in like talking to my wife like let’s take the kids to New York City I love I like New York City we’ve been we’ve been six times now I think we go every two or three years so much changes all the time there that you can see almost a new place every time you go and we love the pizza and the cookies and the bagels and we just walk and eat and see the sights and um we went on purpose to go to Levain Bakery and try these cookies

[ 00:07:10,440 ]because we live in Centerville Indiana at the time there’s no cookies there’s no cookies um so we we went on the trip took the kids their friends are in Florida we’re getting you know snow in New York at the time, but it was still a memorable trip for everybody. The cookies were amazing. I came home and thought, ‘How do I learn to make these here since I can’t buy them? They weren’t shipping them. And so I found a bunch of copycat recipes on their website and I tried. My research brain goes into the low, you know, find, find out how to make these and everybody had different opinions. And so I took kind of the most common denominator from all of the forums and built a recipe from it and it didn’t work.

[ 00:07:52,380 ]It didn’t work. I love that. It didn’t work. It didn’t work. I mean, their cookies look like biscuits, like thick, like six ounce big. This is 2014. So keep in mind that wasn’t crumble— didn’t exist. This was before, like, cookies. The cupcake craze was probably happening at the time. And now that’s died off. But the cookies, these huge cookies, and they were great, but I just couldn’t make it that big and thick. And I was trying to find how they did it, and I just, it didn’t turn out the same. But I still took them to my class and my professor at IU knew I was like thinking about a business and she’s like, ‘just do this.’ This is great. Right. And it works. And so I thought.

[ 00:08:34,600 ]All right, let me think about it. I mean, it didn’t turn out like theirs, so I wasn’t really copying them in a way. Like, I wanted to, but you created yours. I created mine, and everybody loved them. And I still live in Centerville. There’s nowhere to really. So, how close to that original that you made, you know, that you brought into your master’s class, how close to that is the cookie today? The base is the same. Really? Yeah, the combination of flour and all the other stuff. It’s all the same. I would say I’ve added new flavor. Flavors I would say I’ve changed like the chocolate chip was just a regular chocolate chip at the time, and I’ve learned, like, I like a little bit of flaky sea salt on top.

[ 00:09:13,560 ]It’s a great balance with the sugar. Then, by accident, when me and my wife were doing um, okay, so there was nowhere to really sell them in Centerville, right? But, if anybody knows Centerville, Indiana, there is a huge candle company that’s right on the highway. It’s called Warm Glow. And a lot of people go to Warm Glow and get all kinds of things. But they sell a lot of candles, and once a year, they had this fall event where it was almost like a farmer’s market for two days. They put up all these tents, and, and. I got introduced to the lady, Jackie, and she said, ‘Hey, we’d love to have you set up a tent. No one sells cookies at this event, and that’d be good for all the people that are here.’ So I’m like, ‘Cool.’ How many do I make?

[ 00:09:55,689 ]And I took 10% of the amount of people that said they were coming on Facebook. And I just thought I’ll make one cookie for it. That number and it was 700, I think, which I’d never done before. Remember, I’m doing this out of my house with one oven. One tray at a time, one dozen at a time. 700 and some cookies. We didn’t have enough room. The big time is about 18 minutes on that 350. So yeah, let’s just call it every 20 minutes. I was putting a new one in so three dozen an hour. Okay, so this thing started on Saturday morning. And but prior to that, I got to make the dough. It’s a process. So I do like three days ahead of time at least.

[ 00:10:41,270 ]So I make the dough one day. I do. Three ounce dough balls. The next day, out of that dough, and then they’re ready to bake the next day. So it kind of gives the chemistry time to work. I think it was Tuesday night. Me and my wife. I got all the ingredients. Our kitchen was just covered. I set them all up. I’m an operations guy, so of course I had everything sorted nice, everything ready to go. She had her job. I had my job. Job and this is how it all worked together. She would do that part of it, I would do this part of it. We basically had worked most of the food out of our fridge so that we had space.

[ 00:11:10,870 ]By the time we were done, we had almost no food in our fridge and freezer, and it was all cookie dough, ready to be baked. Then the event came, and my parents came up. And we set up. I got up early at like four in the morning and baked like six dozen. And I just had no clue like what I would sell. So I baked six dozen to start. We take them up there. opens at nine and by nine thirty, they’re half gone. And I hadn’t even thought about this point. I better go back to the house. I got to start baking. So I went back to the. house and I started baking and they stayed up there for the next day and a half and we texted back and forth what flavors I needed to do next and I’m got full

[ 00:11:52,490 ]on the TV while I’m baking cookies and I’d put a tray in when I had enough cookies I would go drive them it was five minutes away so I was like I got just enough time to safely like leave the house while they’re cooking. And I would run up there with like six dozen, drop them off, come back. 15 minute clock. Would keep like doing that for a day and a half. How many cookies do you think you sold at that event? We sold a little over 700. Okay. Yeah. And I think at the time, so your estimate was pretty close. Yes. Yeah. We sold out. So it was a two-day event. We sold out about four o’clock on the second day. So maybe a few hours before it was over.

[ 00:12:29,870 ]Wow. So it was good. That was fun and hard and taught us a lot. Right? And one of the things I learned about that— sorry to go back to why the cookie changed a little. It was only in the aesthetics really. I had no containers big enough for all this dough. I was making, so I had to buy these big, I would say, big containers. And I’d make three or four batches. At the time, I was using a three-quart mixer. Okay. So if anybody knows, it’s a bowl about this big. And I’m making batches in that. Okay. Wasn’t even the kitchen made or whatever. My mom got me. Six quart like the next year for Christmas, so I got to double my batch size. Um, and then now I have a 20.

[ 00:13:12,520 ]So I’m it’s just working just perfect. So now I went from a three to 20. Um, but anyway, I was putting dough in this big container. So then when I took it out, I thought I could easily get like these handfuls off of it, like I could in the smaller containers. So I grabbed a big knife and I just started cutting chunks of dough off. So that I could handle it better. And when I started forming the dough, all of a sudden these little chocolate flecks were all over the cookie. And I thought, ‘That just looks better; it looks more artisanal like or inviting. It just looked better than just straight chocolate in a flower cookie. So it just looked better. That was a cool happy accident. And now I always do that.

[ 00:13:48,100 ]So now I chop all the dough all the chocolate. Chip dough is interesting; so it really hasn’t changed that much though I always wanted to have a lot more toppings in a cookie than what I could buy. And so when you buy a package of a recipe on a package of chocolate chips or whatever, it says ‘put 12 ounces in because that’s the size of the bag.’ Right. So convenient. I put 18 ounces in, you know, or whatever. I just want to make sure there’s at least 50% more. Yeah, I want some. I want a better ratio of toppings to the flour. So how many years has that been since you had that event that was 2014? Okay, wow. Yeah, so now we’re talking almost going on 12 years.

[ 00:14:25,720 ]It’s a lot of cookies. It’s been fun. So I kept the whole— you know—obviously, I kept it a side hustle and it was meant to be just that: just fun, creative outlet for somebody that’s not really that creative. Um, and just have a business of my own, and learn like all the little steps of starting a business from setting it up properly, making it an LLC, all those things, and then doing my own. Bookkeeping and all that stuff, and setting up a payment system. And all that stuff is fun to me. So I know some people are like, ‘I don’t want anything to do with that.’ I’m wired that I love that stuff. Your process, guy. You guys know—I don’t like sales and marketing.

[ 00:15:02,230 ]I like the operation, finance side of the business, and just the execution. That’s the funnest part to me. Optimizing, and I just kept working at GE. I love my job at GE, and that’s what really supported my family anyway. The cookies were fun. And then GE sold, and I got done with my master’s. Another company came in, and I took a different role in that company that allowed me to work from home. My son had just graduated from high school. So both kids were out of the house, and I took a role where I could move to Indianapolis, where there was just more. We were 42 years old, so it was like there was more to do, and there was just a lot more stuff.

[ 00:15:43,630 ]So it was a great move, obviously, for the cookie business too, just a lot more places to get them to people. And I kept it a side hustle and worked that job. And when Covet hit, I lost my job. Um, you know, we get old and expensive, and and so when it comes time for those business decisions, you know, you start to become one on the on the on the white board— there that might go. And so, but it was fine. I um, I think ego, if I want to throw ego out there, got in the way after I lost my job because. That’s a huge deal. You know, I never thought of myself as somebody— I always thought of ego as sort of a negative thing.

[ 00:16:25,000 ]But I mean, we just all have an ego in some way. And it doesn’t mean it’s negative. It’s just— it’s what I think we tell ourselves who we are and what we’re worth and what we know. And there’s probably more to it than that. But it’s all I knew was what I had done this whole 22 years of my career was get up every day, go to work, make stuff better, and manage a team, and that’s just what I knew. But when I lost my job, I immediately started looking for another one, you know, and I spent some time looking and talking to people here. I didn’t have a network here. I basically went from Connorsville, Centerville to working from home. Indianapolis and not meeting people just my work.

[ 00:17:10,599 ]People so I didn’t have a network. My friend introduced me to a recruiter that led me to more and more and more and more recruiters and people. Anyway, I did eventually take a job with a venture capital-backed startup here in Indianapolis for about 18 months, and they were scaling. What was fun was I went from a big corporate sort of GE, right, like large, one of the largest, 400,000 people, to thinking about. During that COVID time, learning about EOS for any of those that know what that is— the entrepreneurial operating system started to like. I was like, ‘This is cool. This is something that I could use my entire 20-some career, you know, years in in manufacturing and help other people scale their companies But.

[ 00:18:02,240 ]Part of it was you had to market yourself and go get work. And I didn’t like that. Only a few like sales. I don’t know how to do that. Yeah. I was always the guy that just made whatever somebody sold. So I had no experience really selling. I know we all kind of have experience selling ourselves and interviews and so forth, but I had no. No experience going out and meeting people building business and selling it. So anyway, that was intimidating to me. It did not bring me energy and I try to focus on what brings me me energy. Like what’s, where am I going, and why do I like this? So I really pay attention to that. So I loved us, but going out and becoming an implementer or a coach was not really something I thought hard to do.

[ 00:18:48,300 ]I kept going back to finding a job, and I did. I’ve found a job at Market Wagon, which is a great company, and they were, You Know, they were a smaller business at the time, but COVID had helped them really start to blow up at the time because we delivered a farmer’s market experience to your house instead of you having to go. And that was important during COVID. It was really fun. We doubled the business in about a year and a half, but 2022 was another tough year. It was just a tough year in the market. Venture capital was pulling back a little. And so the business you know hurt a little as well and so it was fun to scale for 18 months but then I lost that that role too.

[ 00:19:31,940 ]They had to scale back and I just thought, You know, let’s just see where cookies can go. Right. You know, when I moved here, I had a neighbor that owned a gym downtown, and he said, ‘Hey, can I buy some cookies for my clients?’ Which I thought was brilliant. Like that’s brilliant. Here’s a gift for me, for you being my client. And also you’re going to want to work that off. So you’re going to sign up for the next year. It was awesome. Um, but one of his clients owned, uh, Kincaid’s meat work. Oh, sure. In Broad Ripple. And he was like, ‘Hey, I think these cookies would sell well at my butcher shop. Right on the counter, right? So I didn’t have to sell, really.

[ 00:20:16,150 ]It was more like my neighbor.’ Was like, can I buy some cookies for my clients? Yes. And then he got him and said, ‘Would you sell these here?’ And that was the sales process. So I went down to him, told him how much they would be, how much I thought he should sell them for, and we worked out how I’m going to deliver them and it went from there. Then they set up a second location, so I got a second location, and then a friend of theirs knew the people at Giacomo. And so I talked to him on the phone and he’s like, ‘Yeah, let’s try it.’ So then I’m in three Giacomos. And so I’m learning a little bit more about just meeting people and talking to people, but I’m sort of an introvert.

[ 00:20:51,110 ]So sales is like, takes a lot of courage for me. And yeah, but what you just described— You know, because I’m the same way. I’m an introvert. Everybody says, ‘No, you’re not.’ And I am. It takes work right in your head. You can. do it, but mentally it’s draining. But yet what you just described is how I tell introverts to sell. Stop selling. Just go talk to people that allow them to sell for you. And then the rest of it takes care of itself. And you’re, you’re just training an external sales force. You just happen to be delivering the cookies to them, but let them do it. So that’s great. Back to back to the ego thing.

[ 00:21:33,250 ]I think it was just that I thought I do bigger things than this small little cookie business in my kitchen and and the sales thing is like— I don’t know how to sell. That’s scary. Like I, my only sales experience was most of us probably is like a car salesman and it’s never been a fun experience. And I did. Want to like? I don’t want to do that. Like, I don’t want to come across that way. I don’t. I don’t like being pressured. I don’t want to be asked those things. And then I know it’s a big deal. A lot of entrepreneurs at first struggle to even ask, like, ‘What should I price my stuff and ‘Like, and am I worth it? Am I worth it?’ and you know, all those things are tough things to think about.

[ 00:22:10,270 ]You know, and I, too, have to raise my prices. But sometimes, like, you know, as we know, things inflation happens. And we’re just talking about chocolate, right? We’re just talking about chocolate. Yeah, and that’s a major ingredient in my cookies. And the price of that has gone up every single year because of bad weather in the region or bugs or who? Knows maybe tariffs I don’t know, but all these things happen and so you kind of have to pass it on because, because even all of us as consumers are getting you know inflation and just everything else we go by, so like, my wife has a business as well, she walks dogs, and And I’m like, every year you need to think about, like, look at your competition.

[ 00:22:51,580 ]And it’s like, you know, stay in line with their prices. Cause if not, but she’s like, I don’t want to raise the prices on, you know. and I get it, like it’s hard to say that, but you just gotta say. Look. If you don’t, then look. The price of everything going up, and yours isn’t. Then we’ll eat that. So everybody has to figure out how to do it and get comfortable with it. And it’s not fun, but the ego thing is just— I, at first thought. I do bigger things than that. Yeah. I’ve been trained. I’ve spent 20 some years. I know what they paid me, you know, all those things. That’s what I’m used to. And so I don’t know that I want to go down that journey of taking something from almost zero sales to.

[ 00:23:33,930 ]What I would need to make to do that, but you know, do I need to make that? And that was the real thing in my head, and eventually, I just found, from losing my job three times in my career, for just things that happened in the world. And I kind of didn’t want to be reliant on anyone else for that sort of thing in the future. So I just thought, I’ve got a good thing here. It’s grown over time without. lot of hardcore sales, just really just talking to some people and one person to another, just leads to every once in a while, I would find somebody I thought, I think it would be good to sell them there. I might as well just make a six pack and go see if it works.

[ 00:24:10,150 ]And I don’t have to say much. Just like, But I tell everybody the first time I ever tried to sell on purpose. Because remember, I had Kincaids, and then they grew. So I had some clients that really weren’t like me— going to a stranger and saying, ‘Would you buy the cookies?’ The first time was another butcher shop, because it did so well at the one I thought. Well, I’ll go to this other one. And so I took. I thought about what I was going to say. Who do I need to ask? For you know, this is all intimidating to me. And so I went to the butcher shop, and I asked for the person. I got to talk to the buyer. And I just said, ‘I have a cookie company.

[ 00:24:49,250 ]I already sell them at another.’ Butcher shop, a competitor, and they sell really well at the point of sale and they just do great. And you’ve already got— they already had, like, another cookie there that wasn’t like mine, but they sell stuff like that. Yeah, and I said so. And I you know, I do weddings and grad parties and stuff too, but I sell them wholesale mainly. And she took them and she said, ‘This is great.’ And I’ll let you know. And before I got back to my house, 10 minutes later, I had an email and it was her saying, ‘Oh my god, the owner loves the chocolate chip, and I love this other one And it was all the questions, right? Like, you know, what flavors do you have?

[ 00:25:25,480 ]How much are they? Where do you make them? All that sort of stuff. Shelf life. Shelf life. Yeah. All the important stuff. scary thing at the time was I made him out of my house and so, um, cottage and so, but I also had rented a kitchen in Carmel before there was a kitchen you could rent there and it’s no longer there, but I could and I had done it there. So I thought, if I’m gonna get the order, I’ll just make them there and I’ll drop them off. I want to do it right. I just didn’t have another option at the time. And anyway, and then she never responded. It got ghosted. It was my first ghosting. Ego blow, right? Yeah, I’m like, see? I can’t do this.

[ 00:26:06,830 ]I can’t do it. It was my first time ever getting the courage to go ask someone to go. It really had nothing to do with you. No. I assume it did not. It didn’t. I followed up once a week for like three weeks. I got no response. Anyway, I kind of thought I’m 0 for 1 on sales now. Maybe I shouldn’t do this, right? Well, sometimes the universe has a unique way of giving you things that you need. giving you things you don’t need. Yes. You’re right. Sometimes it’s a good thing that door doesn’t open. Yes. Could have been a blessing. Yes. So I just moved on. Right. And I continued to get some other stuff and I would use that tactic again later when I got more courage to do it again.

[ 00:26:43,150 ]Um, but a lady down, down the street from where I live opened up a, uh, charcuterie board business and a meal prep business. Sprig and plate Molly’s awesome. I kind of was looking on her website. Somebody said, ‘Hey, they’re opening that kitchen for charcuterie, maybe you could rent from her.’ I was looking at a church down the street that had a huge kitchen and they never used it. I was thinking, who has kitchens that they don’t use? And churches and schools—yes, usually have a big investment in that. So I thought, what churches and another guy network networked with said, ‘I go to this church and they have a huge kitchen.’ So I’ll connect you with the person.

[ 00:27:21,120 ]And so I had some good conversations with them, but they eventually said the board didn’t want to do that because I was for-profit. Commercial enterprise. Yeah. And so they didn’t want to do it. And so, in the meantime, I had gone to Molly’s kitchen and I had delivered cookies downtown. I came back and thought, I’ll make a six pack for her. Drop them off and see if I could. I could sell to her because she doesn’t have a dessert on her website. She makes all these charcuterie boards, but no dessert. Yeah, and so I just made a six pack. I pulled up, and they weren’t open. She just happened to walk out. So it looked like I was probably stalking her.

[ 00:27:56,290 ]So I get out of my car and I’m like, ‘Hi.’ And anyway, I said, ‘Hey, I have a cookie company and a client of mine in my neighborhood said she uses your services and I thought this would be a good fit. And I said, ‘Here’s some cookies. I’d love for you to try them and see what you think. She was gluten-free. And I didn’t have any gluten-free cookies. Strike one. Yeah, here I am 0 for 2 now. But the people that work with her are not all good. Gluten-free so they tried them and she emailed me and she said, ‘Um, hey, I’d love to put these on my menu and um, I did. I remember I didn’t go in her. And I wasn’t looking to rent her kitchen.

[ 00:28:37,480 ]I wanted to, but I didn’t even know what it was like. I just wanted to see if I could get on her menu first. And so anyway, she gave me an order the next week.’ and um I went in and dropped the cookies off, and that was the first time I walked in, and I was like, ooh, this is awesome. There’s plenty of room for me here. This would be a great fit if I could rent from her, but I was working with the church at the time. So anyway. My wife picked up an order that day for a friend in the neighborhood at the and and that’s when Molly stopped her and said, where’s Kevin make the cookies at? And she was trained to not say ‘right’ house right.

[ 00:29:13,740 ]Um she said, well we’re looking at this church down the street and then she said, if he’s interested in renting here, I’d love to talk to him. So I went in and talked to her, and we worked it out. Her business was completely viable without me, but she’s like, ‘I got space and this could be a good combo.’ I’ve been there for two years. Wow. It’s been awesome. So the cookie business has just continued to grow. And even with the EOS stuff, I did get into a little bit of that. As Adam’s aware. And I’m not an EOS implementer, but I like to help on the fractional integrator side doing the weekly sort of L10 meetings and stuff like that.

[ 00:29:53,500 ]So I still do that, but it’s funny when I started trying to like do more of that in networking. and people always ask you know that’s what we naturally do. What do you do? Oh, like if you know what EOS is, I do fractional integrator. Where to help these companies. And then I also have a cookie business. And then there’s no more talking about what EOS is. It’s cookies. Tell me about cookies. Tell me how you do it. Where are you at? You know, all these things. So I’ve just learned everybody likes to, they’re curious and they like to talk about cookies. So it kind of like markets itself in a lot of ways. Yes. Yes. Anyway, that’s a long answer. No, that’s fantastic.

[ 00:30:31,820 ]I mean, one, I want you to come up to Purdue and talk to my students because the story you just went through has so many. What I would call typical things that you may not be— thinker typical that, you know, learning cycles, failure, just, you know, you walk to a door and nobody, you know, people say no. And that goes dark, all those things. Correct. Yeah. What do you call that? Oh, it’s not ego. Imposter syndrome. Yeah. Right. All those things are all wrapped up into that. Right. And here we are still chugging along. And, you know, my logo was Rolls Royce, yours was GE, right? And I always joke that when that logo gets ripped off. A piece of you goes away right all of a sudden, you’re really tested of who you are, and you’ve gone through all that.

[ 00:31:15,530 ]So it’s fantastic, so yeah. And I, you know, was networking a lot with people. I mean, I was on a couple of Zoom again, it was COVID, so there’s a lot of Zoom networking groups that I was getting in. A lot of people that had lost their jobs. We’re looking for what they’re doing next. I always had the cookie businesses like this thing in the background that just was fun to keep doing. And, you know, I saw most people. didn’t have anything like that. You know, it’s just they had their job, and then their job was gone, and that’s all they did for a long time. And I was probably the youngest person in that group. I mean, many of them were in their 50s and 60s, and they were still like, ‘What am I gonna do next?’ And um, it’s tough times.

[ 00:31:54,970 ]It was really tough, and then it’s gotten a little better, but it was tough then. And um, you’re right. Sometimes, your identity and that was maybe the ego thing too. I’m just like, ‘This is what I do. This is who I am.’ And I’ve learned to just let that go. Yes, and that’s not easy. Oh yeah, to say, you know, I know. I learned those skills, and I got paid that much money to use those skills, and I did a great job. But maybe now it’s time for this. And this is fun. And this feeds my my creative side. And I enjoy learning more and more about business and how to make this business better. And um, and it’s created. whole new community for me too.

[ 00:32:31,300 ]Yeah, I’ve met new people and built new relationships, which is what life is all about. Yeah, I don’t know about you, but I would say they’re even more interesting people. That sounds awful, but I call it in a corporate setting: people are kind of in buckets. You know, they’re just, you know, they’re doing their thing. It’s perfectly fine. It’s not meant to be demeaning. They do, they just kind of have one thing to do. You know, the people we meet, you know, they’re Swiss Army knives sometimes, right? And their stories are just fascinating, right? So I’m with you—yes, it’s true. I mean, I think obviously, everybody has a story, but sometimes those stories never get to those stories when you’re in a work environment.

[ 00:33:11,550 ]You know, you’re doing your work, and you’re in meetings all the time, or whatever you’re doing. Sometimes we probably don’t take enough time to really get to know the person and what’s going on with them. Everybody’s got stuff, but we do learn. It does seem like at least entrepreneurial people seem to have, like, they’ve had to do. Wear so many hats, yeah that they have a huge array of skills, sure that they’ve had to do, yeah. But when you are in a large corporate environment, you typically are a specialist, not a generalist, and so you don’t have to fix your I. T. You have a button, right now it shows up right now. I remember that, yeah. I’ll take it. Correct a lot of resources, and that’s great.

[ 00:33:52,830 ]You know, but you look, you learn to become a lot more resourceful when you’re alone. So one of the things we’ve learned about you is you’re very curious. You’re a lifelong learner. What are some other hobbies that really inspire you outside of work? outside cookies, yeah. Nowadays, my life is so different now than it was back then. Um, yeah, the cookie business takes—uh, you know, I kind of like it where it’s at. I’m gonna say something that a lot of people probably like. Yeah, nobody listens. Nobody says that. Um, it’s probably rare. I’m not trying to scale the cookie business. Um, and you guys know that, sure. Um, it’s really a lifestyle business. It’s it’s exactly like kind of the size I like it.

[ 00:34:37,380 ]I’m— I’m pretty much besides a couple hours of volunteering that I get from my wife and a friend. I spend about 20 hours a week on it, depending on the season. Right. And the rest of the time, you know, I like the EOS stuff, so I do some of that. And then. I have a podcast as well called ‘Fire Your Boss’ with our friend Jim. And so we love to interview people that have taken the leap to start their own thing. And we love to hear what they learned about themselves along the way and hopefully that inspires other people to to consider it. I love doing that. Me and Jim may make that bigger—it’s but we do about one interview a month now and that’s been fun.

[ 00:35:21,310 ]I think we might do more with that. I love that. Then um, you know, I’m 50 now. So you start thinking about— I’m nine and a half years ahead of you. Well, health, you know, like I have the time now to really like spend more time on that. And I just. Happen to love doing it? So I know not everybody loves to go run, or lift weights, or whatever. I’ve always liked it, and so I spend— pretty much— six to seven days a week doing something at least 30 to 60 minutes of a workout. So I love doing that. Um, pickleball was huge for me for a couple years. So yeah, we talked about this before— we started started the show— but I used to do it a lot. I loved it.

[ 00:36:05,330 ]Like it took me by storm, just like a lot of people. It’s competitive, you know, you’re getting sweaty, it’s a good workout, and socially, I met a lot of people, a lot of really great people, going to you know play games and stuff. So it was great. I mean, I’ve probably even got a couple of cookie clients out of it. You know, not trying to, but it just naturally happens. When you socially you know connect with people and so I did that, but then it started hurting my body in different ways than it should have, like, you know, I started getting some like tendonitis and yeah, other things. So I was just probably helping orthopedics, um, with their businesses rather than me. I think ortho Andy created pickle. I really do.

[ 00:36:47,350 ]It’s like, yeah. It’s a great way to get business. Absolutely it is. They’re doing well. It’s putting their doctor’s kids through college. So what’s 26 look like? for you. That’s a good question. I mean, I’m still excited about the cookie business. I still want to keep that going, and I don’t know if I want to. I mean, I have ideas that I will sit and stew on for a long time and I’ll bounce things off of people like you guys. know have experiences like, well, have you done that? What do you think about that? I’ve thought about— should I create a course or not? Do people really want to learn how to make these cookies? Is that something I want to do? I don’t know. I keep that as a thought.

[ 00:37:35,280 ]Not necessarily for the revenue, but just for getting it out there and creating some content around the business. Business again, not to grow it just to like add another layer of, you know, let me, let me show you how to do it or how this works. I know most people don’t want to have all those ingredients at their house and make cookies, but some people might. Um, but still I thought about that. Um, I mean, you know, you have a thought of ‘should I’ should I write a book or have a cookbook or anything cookie related or not cookie related? I think those are things I still wonder about, but haven’t. Seriously thought about. So for now, I’m just keeping it with the, I like the Fire Your Boss podcast.

[ 00:38:15,940 ]I love the cookies. I love helping with the EOS stuff as an integrator. And working out and staying in shape. That’s all I’m focused on right now. But I could see maybe the cookie business adding something— adding another sort of flavor, not of cookies, but, uh, like, right—maybe, maybe anything, yeah, yeah, possibly. Nice. Definitely, maybe. Well, you mentioned it. I think you mentioned it, right? You’ve spent 23 years working or 13 years working on the song you played this morning, right? Yes. Mentioned the same thing— just kind of keep chest eating, but you know, just keep writing it down. Right. It’ll eventually come to you. Right. And just keep, just keep building it. Right. Effort correct I like to I tell my son even like when we’re chatting about stuff like what brings you like when you think about it like what gets you energized it really to me That’s worked best for me.

[ 00:39:12,370 ]If I start thinking about one of those new roles I told you about where I was thinking about lean manufacturing or jumping into the new, the job across the street with the new. P and L and like, Oh my God, it’s scary because I don’t know much about it. And I know they know, I don’t know anything about it. So then you got to get over the fact that like, do I care as much about what they think about or that. They think or that I’m just going to learn enough to figure it out eventually again. Competence is low, confidence is low. But once you start learning and growing and showing that you’re putting in the time, do something. If it brings you energy, you will put in the time because you’re curious.

[ 00:39:46,400 ]Then you keep being curious. So I try to find. Find those things. And, you know, at one point I was, you know, investing. We’ve talked about investing in the past outside of the show, of course. But my friend said something about options trading. And I was like, ‘Oh, that sounds interesting.’ So I started to learn. and it was interesting for a minute, right? and then it just i kind of like noticed i wasn’t getting excited about it i didn’t jump out of bed thinking, ‘i can’t wait to go like put my options trading plan together today.’ um, i watched videos, i did learn some things, but like anything, that’s how i attack it. i’m just kind of like, that sounds interesting. let’s go see.

[ 00:40:24,690 ]and then it might be a week or a month later. and i’m like, kind of not still excited about it. so i move on to something else until i find the thing. and right now it’s the podcast and it’s the cookies. Working out and trying to stay healthy, nice, and hanging out with you guys, well, that’s awesome. We always enjoy it. Yeah, we appreciate you coming on. That was awesome. It’s a great story. Thanks for having me. Okay and thanks for uh feedback on my cookies. Oh yeah, they’re really good. Don’t buy them. We want them all. That’s right. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks, dude. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you.