[ 00:00:01,140 ]Let’s go!

[ 00:00:22,440 ]I’m Adam Hayes. Welcome into Behind the Brand Podcast. To my right is my co-host, Bob Payton. And to our left today is our guest, Jason Butler. Welcome. Welcome. Thanks. Thanks for coming. Yeah, this was fun. So process coach. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about that. Um. So. AI is kind of a thing. Yeah. A lot of people are kind of intrigued by how they can use AI to make a better or to help their business. The problem is no one actually really knows how to use it. Yeah. And it’s really difficult to actually get into your day-to-day operations. And so as we’re looking at people, you know, our background is technology. We’re software consultants. And so, as we’re looking at our clients, they’re saying, ‘Hey, give us a strategy on how to get AI into our business.’ And we’re looking at it, and we’re like, you know, the problem isn’t really the tool.

[ 00:01:14,410 ]The tools capable of doing it. The problem is that your businesses just aren’t structured to use it. And so, what we thought is, you know, there are some things that we need to change. One of them being, like, your business processes, the way you do your day-to-day, like the AI needs to be a part of that. Not some third-party system that you like, stop what you’re doing, and go over there and start asking it a bunch. Questions and then come back like it just needed to be where you were doing the work that you’re doing. Right? So we thought, how can we build some tools to actually make that possible for business? Perfect. And that’s we set out to do. And so, at the end of the day, it kind of actualizes itself like an external employee.

[ 00:01:49,970 ]Yeah. Where you interact with it through email, chat, like Teams or Slack, or a text message. And you basically say, ‘Hey, just had a great meeting with Bob. Can you help me onboard him as a lead?’ And they will have a conversation with you and then do the work in your systems on your behalf. Right. So talk to us about human in the loop, because I know that’s a big emphasis. Yeah. You trust AI? Because I don’t. No. Especially after listening to a podcast. If you trust it to hallucinate, yeah, yeah. Right? So you’ll ask it questions and it gives you. Often it’s good information. Sometimes it’s not. And you don’t always know when that’s going to happen. Exactly.

[ 00:02:30,150 ]Part of our philosophy in this change management of how do you get AI into a business, because it’s more of a change management thing than it is a technology thing. So in this idea, our thought was, hey, you know what? We need to make sure that, yes, let AI be a part of it. Let AI even drive it. But don’t let AI take action without a human saying that this is what I want you to do. Right. Which is what everybody’s afraid of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve actually had that happen. I’ve been testing scheduling and things like that. When it does something. And especially when it doesn’t tell you it’s done it. Oh, it’s terrifying. You find out, right? Yeah. So I understand that. Yeah, it really is.

[ 00:03:07,470 ]It’s a big fear of, you know. Every business owner, it sends out my financial statements to my entire email, right? And it’s whatever. Yeah. So what we’ve done are things where, like, we don’t enable it to send an email. email. We only let it draft an email and put it in your draft inbox. Yes. So that way you have control over when it sends it. We don’t let it go and just update the CRM. We make it ask you first, ‘Are you okay if I go and do this?’ And so that lets us kind of ease into being comfortable with what AI is doing. The other thing I keep reminding everybody is AI is the dumbest it will be right now. So tomorrow is going to be smarter, and the day after that will be smarter.

[ 00:03:48,450 ]It’s okay for us to say, ‘Hey,’ you know, similar to how you bring in, like, an apprentice the first couple times you work with them or you know, an intern like first couple times you’re like, ‘Let me see what you’re doing Right. Like, let me, let me make sure that hits our expectations. Then eventually, you’re like, ‘You got this.’ Yeah. Um, and then, and so with. AI were doing the same. Hey, human, validate everything. Yes. Then you can get to a point where you’re like, ‘Yeah, I’ll validate it,’ but you can go do the work. Right. And then you get to the point where you’re like, ‘Yeah, just do it.’ But we’re going to let AI get more intelligent and get rid of some of the hallucinations and some of the things that have happened over time.

[ 00:04:24,550 ]The key to me, though, is it’s already in your process. Right. So you’re set up as a business when AI does release the next great model that’s able to do it. You’re like flip a switch. I’m ready to go. Right. That to me is the key. Because again, as I’ve said now, I think five times, this is about change management. So if we get it into your process, we’ve got the change in the process. Now it’s the technology as it evolves can just can just be used. Yeah. So you find with the clients that you’ve interfaced with so far that I’ll call it the change part needs to come up front, even the acceptance of the fact that this either needs to happen or management wants it to happen. Yeah, whatever.

[ 00:05:06,780 ]The worst thing that has happened, I think, to AI is the marketing hype. Yeah. Yeah. So what ends up happening is we’ll come in and someone goes, ‘I need an AI strategy,’ which I always have kind of struggled with. You can have a strategy for a hammer. Yeah. Yeah. CNC machine. Yeah. It’s a tool. Um, so you need a business strategy and then. AI might be the right tool for what you’re trying to accomplish in your business. So we have to start there. And then there’s also this idea that like, well, I can just give AI all the information and it will do everything for me. So that’s not really true either. So let’s talk about work to be done, yeah, right. So talk about that methodology. Yeah.

[ 00:05:51,730 ]So we think a lot from that standpoint of, like, what work are you actually accomplishing in your processes? And let’s set up the AI to know how to do that job. Right. And then, when it comes time to do that job, let’s make sure that all of the context of what it takes to do that job is available. I don’t know about you, but every time I’m going into, I’m in the midst of a process, I’m like, ‘Oh, AI could help me here. I have to spend 20 minutes writing context about the problem I’m dealing with.’ Again, even though it’s all in the process that we’ve been doing, now I have to go move it over to AI so that it’s aware of what’s happening.

[ 00:06:25,620 ]So the idea of jobs to be done or work to be done, we say, ‘Hey, we’ve gotten to a point in our process where this work needs to get done.’ And this means that this is the definition of what the work looks like right now when it comes to you. It says, ‘I need you to do this thing.’ You can ask like one and two word sentences, like ‘Just real quick.’ Like, ‘Help me.’ And it will actually help you with the job it’s trying to help you accomplish. Right. And that’s kind of the way that you’ve structured the entire project. Yeah. Yes. Very much so. Have you heard the idea in prompt engineering of personas? Yes. Sure. Okay. So that’s basically the same idea.

[ 00:07:04,200 ]Is you know, instead of saying, ‘Uh, help me find hikes in Yosemite,’ you say, ‘Hey, you’re a professional trail guide. Help me find some hikes in Yosemite.’ You just basically gave it a persona. And by giving it that persona, you also gave it the job to be done. Yes. So it now knows what needs to happen. It’s one step beyond even I’m not asking it, but put them. Put that tool or bot into a situation where it is the expert. Right. The content, okay. Yeah. Interesting. And so there’s a whole bunch of math around how it pulls in the information, then, which is really fascinating. But by just giving it the persona, all of a sudden you’ve limited the set of data into expert level data.

[ 00:07:44,230 ]And so, if we set up the job to be done that way, then we can start limiting the AI to say, ‘Oh, I am best in class HR because I know what that means.’ And now, when you’re asking me questions, I can answer you with the right kind of information. Not all the gibberish that you might find in a fiction novel, but the stuff that you would find for an HR professional. Perfect. Does that also include the business’s own data? Yes. So there is a concept called retrieval augmented generation in AI. It’s a really fancy term that basically just means it goes and looks up your data for you. What’s really cool about AI and kind of the big breakthrough really with AI is the fact that it can take unstructured data and make sense of it.

[ 00:08:30,380 ]Correct. So by that, I mean, like. A whole five years ago, you get an email in and a computer reading what your email says was actually kind of hard. So it would like, it would have to read it one sentence at a time. And it didn’t really get the context. Like we could get keywords out. Well, like Google search, right? Google searches, keyword search. Like it didn’t understand really. what you wrote and the context around it but it understood the words yes so that’s kind of where we were coming from well now ai came along and what it’s got is it’s understanding the context around it so now when you get an email it actually understands what’s being asked So retrieval augmented generation is basically applying the same kind of search that’s happening inside of the AI engine to all your own custom data.

[ 00:09:14,090 ]So the cool thing is you’re in a process, you’re about to meet with somebody on a meeting. And so you have your pre-meeting process, standard operating procedure, and you can go, oh. what was the, what tasks are outstanding? And it will go read all of your notes and be able to come back and say, ‘Here are all the things you said you would do before the next meeting.’ And then you can panic before the meeting and get it all done. But so that’s a concept that is built into the process because it makes the AI feel smart. Yeah. And that, that brings up a kind of a top of its personality—yes, persona. Talk about that a little bit. I mean, I’ve just heard things on podcasts and that they like to be kind to you?

[ 00:09:59,850 ]Yeah. Well, they want you to be right. Okay. So it’s their job to basically make you right. So when you’re talking to it, well, and think about why, right? So how is it trained? Is it all basically positive reinforcement? So we give it information and then it gives us a response back. And we’re like, ‘That was good’ or ‘That was bad.’ And so you get 100,000 ‘that was good’ and it starts to want to be good. So it goes that way. So with humans, basically, it’s like: ‘How can I make you happy?’ And so it’s trying to find the way to make you happy, which is why it’ll do something wrong. And you’ll be like, ‘No, you idiot. What were you thinking?

[ 00:10:37,180 ]That was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.’ They’ll go, ‘Oh, you’re right. Yes. Right. That’s the placating. Yeah. Yeah.’ So you could be two plus two is five. No, it isn’t. No, it isn’t. It’s like, ‘No, two plus two is five.’ No, it isn’t. No, I’m telling you, two plus two is five. Okay, you’re right. Because it’s trying to get that positive reinforcement. Intern. Just remember, intern. Yeah. You might be right. So that’s really what’s going on. So as you’re working it, it’s picking up on the nuances of the context of the way you’re communicating. And then trying to basically make that true. Which is some of where the danger comes in when you start looking at some of the psychology uses around it.

[ 00:11:22,290 ]And why you see, I just saw a kind of disturbing thing where a girl over in China officially married her AI companion. And it’s like, well, that’s getting nervous. What did the ring look like? I don’t know. But it’s like this is like prenuptial. It’s very like it’s trying to make you happy. And so it’s going to say the things that you want to hear. Now you can tell it not to. One of my favorite tricks I’ve seen recently is like, I want you to just rip me to shreds on everything. It’s one of my favorite things. And so then it’ll go the opposite direction. So you can kind of force it to do some things, but it’s making you happy because it’s a request. So let’s talk a little bit more about process coach.

[ 00:12:04,630 ]And so, what are some of the most interesting use cases that you’ve seen it applied towards? Yeah. So, what’s really fun is. I’m going a little geeky here. That’s good. So, what I’m finding really fascinating about this is AI has provided a new level, a new layer of abstraction between what business is doing and what technology is doing. So, you think about, like, HR processes. And you say, ‘All right, we’re running payroll.’ Well, currently, if you were to try and automate that in some way, shape, or form, you end up in tools that are very decision tree structures. And at the high level, that works okay. When you start to get into each individual step and you start building out all the nuanced decision tree, it gets real fragile. Yeah.

[ 00:12:52,370 ]And it breaks all the time and you end up wasting a lot. Like Zapier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you end up wasting all the time around it. What’s interesting with AI is it’s created an abstraction layer where you now can talk in general terms. And then apply the tools for it to use later. So by that, I mean, we can write a process that says we’re going to run payroll. And I want you to go to the payroll system and validate all of the times, all of the timesheets. And so you can talk in generalities. Then we can come in and say, ‘Oh, AI, by the way, you have access to Paylocity.’ Or you could come and go, actually, you know what?

[ 00:13:32,040 ]You have to get access to Gusto, and you don’t have to change your process. But you abstracted out which tool it talks to. Okay. But you’re able to talk about it in general terms, like go to the payroll system, it figures it doesn’t matter, right? So you’re now able to start to pull yourself out of your tight coupling with all your tools and create some gaps. So one of the fun things is we have an HR company that essentially has built all of their best practices, of how HR should be operated. And they wrote it with in-process code generically. So they can now go into their client and say, ‘Oh, hey, you know what? For a little extra.

[ 00:14:09,900 ]Drop in our AI assistant, you’ll have an email address at your domain that you can talk to, and it will do all the best practices for HR for voluntary resignations, for onboarding. And even if someone goes, ‘Hey, I’m going to resign,’ it will have a conversation with them to get all the information in the best practices way. And then they can plug in each customer’s unique systems and still apply their best practices. So all of a sudden now you are going to, you know, in one case, ADP, in another, and they don’t care because you’re still following the best practices. That’s really cool. That’s very cool. That’s a new development that’s come about as a result of AI. Interesting.

[ 00:14:56,680 ]I think it’s going to open up a lot of opportunities for the consulting world, the services side, because they can now come in and say, ‘Yes, I have the way we like— we have. Our best practices. And you’re like, ‘Well, install it in your business, and we’ll install it right in your business with your tools.’ Hope they’re right. Yeah. Um, and so that’s going to be really fascinating. That’s very cool. We’ve also done some other fun things that are more like holistic processes. Uh, talk about some of those things like, um, sourcing travel information from start to finish. So you send in information about how you’re going to do X, Y, and it actually will go get a lot of that information, send it to the broker who then can do look at it, do what they need to do and send the right quotes out.

[ 00:15:46,500 ]Out the door. But that’s it. There are some huge processes around that. That’s awesome. And so I’m sorry, I’m a little vague about that one for NBA reasons. Another one I’ve heard you talk about, you know, it’s in the insurance world, right? And as far as employee benefits are concerned and getting, you know, consensus data and all that kind of thing. There’s a lot of use cases around that as well because there’s a lot of manual paperwork, a lot of manual conversions that happen in that space. So that’s another place that’s been very successful. A lot in finance. We ended up doing a lot on the finance side. Um, We’re starting to get a lot more on the sales side. And we’ve got a couple of use cases where.

[ 00:16:31,359 ]Well, salespeople hate their CRMs. They do. I mean, I hate my CRM. I don’t know anybody that doesn’t. They hate updating them. Yes. And so the idea that you could just text and just have it go back and forth and set up and get the information for me, that’s really compelling. Experimenting with voice, so that’s what I was gonna say. Voice… um. So get in your car. You’ve had the meeting. Yeah. Verbally, this is what happened. Just. And let it ask me questions, and let me answer them. Are you kidding me? Right. Yes, I’m all about that. Yeah. Um. Just met with Bob. Can you go find Bob’s info? Yeah. Can you put it in place? Yeah. So. Oh. You had a meeting today at 10? Yes, I did. Well.

[ 00:17:12,849 ]What’d you guys talk about? Well, we talked about these things. Okay. Is there any follow-up you need me to do? Yeah. Can you make sure and do X, Y, and Z? And it all gets in for you, like? Are you kidding me? Like? That’s. So we were having a. Discussion with Kevin that there is a consultant that he knows of that is kind of like the nagging aunt or mom. That you pay to bug you, yes, and she gets paid a lot of money, yeah, right. To just literally keep track of what you said, you’re supposed to do, and nag you, yeah, right. So it’s kind of that same, you know, it can be positive, but it’s the same concept. I get it, you know? Interesting.

[ 00:17:47,410 ]From an onboarding perspective, what does that look like, you know, as a new client of Process Coach? So here’s something interesting for us and a transition we’re starting to make a little bit. The hardest part of getting this up and running is not the technology. It is preparing the business. And so what we’re starting to do is we’re actually starting to transition into more of a partner network where we’re working with implementation partners that—this is what they do. It’s meant to help you manage the change in your business because it’s hard. The technology isn’t the problem. Now, my company, we’re all technical geeks. We’re the AI guys down in the ones and zeros, and we love that. But you probably don’t want the ones and zeros guys having conversations with your frontline staff.

[ 00:18:35,620 ]It’s not going to go well. So I’m going to lose my job type thing. Um, and of course people like me are like, ‘Oh, everything’s possible.’ Let’s dream it up. And. The front line is like, well, hold on a second. What’s actually going to change? And, you know, none of our businesses— we’ve worked with— have actually laid someone off as a result of AI. They all are using it to scale up. But all that to say, implementation ends up looking more like a change management process than it is a technology implementation. So we’re working with partners to come in and actually do that portion of the engagement. And when it comes down to, all right, now there’s technology that needs to be done to do these things, by that time they’ve already had the conversations that need to be had.

[ 00:19:23,190 ]And that’s where onboarding hits. And that’s where we come in, and we’re like. I mean. I’ve had a couple that have been deployed in two days. I’ve had a couple of that have taken three or four months. It depends on. Thank you. I don’t know about your clients. Most of my clients I run into don’t really even know what their standard operating procedures are. It’s just, you know, chat around the corner that handles it. And, you know, once you do, I don’t know. Chuck. Yeah. So, or they think they do. And then once you ask one question, it all falls apart. Yeah. Yeah. So that is the hard part. So does that become the limiting time factor? Yes. In the end? Yes. So, I mean, if, if, and let’s say 90%.

[ 00:20:10,570 ]The businesses, that’s a situation they’re in. It still doesn’t mean they can’t do it. No. Right? It’s just a pace. It’s just understanding. And they’ve got to be willing. Exactly. Understand the duration. Understand that it’s not a technical problem. It’s a business process problem. And that means there may be 10 people in your organization. You’ve got to get in alignment about how you’re actually going to do something. And that is hard. But it’s also an opportunity. It’s a huge opportunity. I mean, past life, but I mean, if you can get a team to, if they don’t have the process, have the team document it and do it. And then you’re, you’re have them be the implementers. I think process coach— kind of walks you through that. Right?

[ 00:20:55,180 ]It feels like it does help with that. And it, it does, like, it will ask you the questions. You still have to have the conversations. Right. Um, but it’s kind of a force model, yeah. Okay, go have these conversations, yeah. We need answers to this. What are you going to do? You’re like, well, I don’t know. I don’t know. Well, let’s sit around and figure it out. There’s, you know, five people to be brought in, but even that, there’s layers, right? I mean, there’s, let’s just say, the CEO or the owner, right? Because, well, that’s a great, we’ll ask that question later, what’s the best pathway, right? But, you know, get past that mindset of, I know I need to do this.

[ 00:21:33,750 ]I don’t know what it is yet, but I know I need to do it because if I don’t, my competitor is. Second layer, then, is maybe that C-suite or whoever, and I’ll get them on board. And then you’re filtering your way down to the workforce. And the general workforce is terrified, right? Because they hear the news and et cetera, et cetera, which probably most is half wrong. So you got to deal, but literally you have to deal with that. Interesting. Yes. So, as things change and evolve in their business, let’s say that they needed to, you know, do you have an account rep assigned to that particular, you know, account or that particular channel partner? How are you structuring that? Yes.

[ 00:22:13,070 ]So, the frontline client will end up working with the implementation partner directly on that front because they’re the ones who are going to have been in and having the real business conversation and what the process looks like. We do support the partner behind the scenes technically to make sure everything’s good to go on that front. And then I feel like our job is to help make sure that our clients, both the implementation partners and the people who are using Process Coach on their front end, understand what’s really coming, like what’s really happening in AI, so they can make informed decisions. So we’re doing a lot on the education side to say, ‘Hey.’ This is what RAG really is. This is why you really would want to use it.

[ 00:23:02,530 ]Don’t go throw money at anything. Like there’s specific use cases that you should be using this for. That’s where we’re putting a lot of our energy into making sure that we’re equipping people to use AI appropriately. Our tagline has become tools for intelligent businesses. Right. And that’s what we’re trying to build. Perfect. Make sure that you’ve got the tools so that you can be an intelligent business. So, from an implementation partner standpoint, what are you looking for? What kind of relationships are you looking to establish there? You know, it looks a lot like somebody that is methodical in the way that they approach change. I don’t know about you all, but when I go through change management, I feel like there’s a plan. My defense level goes down right sure and I’m like, ‘Oh, we’re working a process.

[ 00:23:48,270 ]Yes, and we’re gonna, and we know where we’re heading. And it’s tied to this outcome. Yes, and this is what we’re okay. Okay.’ I they’re they’re thinking about it intentionally. Um, they’re I either trust my my uh leadership or I don’t. If I don’t, then there’s conflict and that I don’t believe they’re looking out for me. If I trust my leadership, then I’m like, ‘Oh, okay, we’re gonna work this together.’ Right, so um, I look for methodical approach. I look for people that are methodical in the way that they approach their clients. Yeah, um, now we do have uh process that we help train them on on uh AI uh implementation and what that looks like. I mean, we’ve done it, so we’ve got a process.

[ 00:24:30,320 ]It’s just we want to make sure that we’re equipping those individuals to to execute that effectively, but they need to do it very methodically. Right. I mean, is this whole thing similar, this AI introduction? I think you know, Introduction of the automobile. Introduction of CNC machines. I remember when that happened, and everybody was totally terrified. And to your point, did the machinist upskill or not? And if he did, now he’s running four machines. But his day is way different. Yes. So, and I don’t need for machinist, but I still need a machinist. Yeah. And so is this kind of that, and is it on like. Compared to those things in the past, is this like that on super steroids, or is it do you think it’s more of the same thing?

[ 00:25:19,460 ]And the pace of change won’t be as fast per se, just because of the fear—um—I think the marketing is outpacing the practicality right now. So because of that, I think that there’s a lot of of thoughts that we’re going to be able to replace entire workforces with this. And I don’t think that’s real. I think my favorite analogy I’ve heard recently around this was—um—AI is like a really good cover band. It’s like You go and you’re impressed. Like, they’re really talented. You’ll hear a Beatles cover band, and you’re like, ‘They’re good.’ They sound just like them. Like, that was amazing. They’re wearing the outfits and everything. But you don’t sit on Spotify every month looking to see if they have a new album out. Right.

[ 00:26:02,670 ]Because they don’t. It’s a cover band. Yes. Like, there’s nothing. It’s not creating new. And while generative AI is considered to be generating, it’s mimicking patterns. It’s mimicking what it’s been given. It’s not creating new. So it’s not going to, I don’t think, it’s going to blow up the music industry like everyone’s freaked out about because I think humans are too creative. Yeah. It’s a really good cover band. It might actually play the music better than a human can play the music. But, same thing, I think, is going to happen with business. I don’t think it’s blowing up and I don’t think it’s going to blow up all of our jobs. I think it’s going to do a really good job of stuff that we know how to do really well.

[ 00:26:38,710 ]I think it’s going to do it probably better. Right. But that, I don’t know, in my world, at least now I am an AI. So in my world, they’re a little biased. Well, the pace of change is such. That we’re learning new things constantly. And the way that we’re approaching people and the way that we’re approaching problems is totally different. So AI can’t adapt to that. It doesn’t have a pattern to adapt to. Right. So it’s going to have to have humans figure out how to make the pattern so that it can follow the pattern. Yes. Interesting. Change management. Yeah. Back up a little bit. Tell us how you got here. Um and it could be readers’ digest, right? Yeah. So uh, growing up, um, I wanted to be a Disney cartoon animator.

[ 00:27:29,920 ]Okay, that was my dream to make? I’m terrible at drawing. I have no artistic ability at all. But I wanted to draw goofy. Okay, that’s what I loved it. And so I would make flip books. And that was like, I was just obsessed with it. In the mid 80s, my dad, who is a pastor, decided to buy a computer to write his sermons. And so he bought it. We went to Radio Shack and we got a Tandy 1000. Album, oh yeah, I remember that, oh yeah, um and uh, it came with two discs. He bought, I think, Word Five and a Quarter. Oh yeah, the big one. He didn’t even have a hard drive. Right, like the big guys. And so it came with two discs.

[ 00:28:08,480 ]One was Word, so that he could word you know word process, and then the other one just came with it. Was called Basic. And as a nine-year-old, I kind of became obsessed with it. And it had this massive book, and I like read it from cover to cover, which my parents were like, you never read it. Anything I’m like, but I can tell a computer to do something and it will do it. So I started to use the computer, the Tandy 1000, to try and create animations. Okay, because that’s what I was like—I can’t draw, but maybe I can make the computer animate things for me. And that led one thing led to another. Pixar then came out in the early nineties. And I was obsessed with that.

[ 00:28:46,730 ]It was like, that is the coolest thing ever. So I lamp. Yeah. So, um, For college, I started looking for a program that was computer science and three-dimensional animation. It turns out that Taylor University had one. In upland Indiana, Oh yeah, and so uh, I went to Taylor, and they they have you do so. I was computer science major with a focus. I had to have two tracks. So the tracks they had were three-dimensional math and artificial intelligence, because that sounded cooler than databases. So even then, AI was in the mix. It was in the mix, interesting. Now it was uh, I mean, nothing like what they’re doing now, right? But it was the early stages of it. So we did a lot of expert systems, in there, we did a lot of and modeling and simulation.

[ 00:29:34,470 ]And there was some neural network work and then a lot of game theory, which is all. Into how AI runs now. So that’s what we were all studying. So I was doing my animation, which is what I really wanted to do when I grew up, and then AI, because it was cooler than any other options. Then, when you go to get a job and you graduate, you realize that those animators don’t really get paid. So I guess we’re going to find something else to do. So, son, what are you going to do? So we ended up making a pivot and also found out that I’m kind of entrepreneurial in nature. So that started this path. I have probably failed at my fair share of businesses. That’s how you learn.

[ 00:30:21,780 ]So I’ve driven a couple of those into the ground. That’s what made me decide to go get an MBA from. Once I finished my MBA in Notre Dame, we basically, my wife and I set a nine-month schedule to start the business we’re running now. So 2010, we stepped out with this one and I’ve been running it ever since. So that’s awesome. Thanks for sharing that. Always good context. Yeah. So what hobbies do you have? I play a lot of sand volleyball. Okay. In a league? Like a competitive league? Is it iBeach? Yeah, so iBeach is up the road here. That’s really fun. There’s a fun league that is like a quads league that plays at Pinheads over off of 37. And that’s a lot of fun. I’ve been doing that for 26 years now.

[ 00:31:05,900 ]Oh, wow. And I’m six foot six. So you can’t, you don’t have to be good when you’re tall. But, no, I play a lot, and that’s a lot of fun. I’m not as good indoors, so it’s just faster. Just as a different game, actually, there’s even different rules. So, it just moves faster for for me than I’m used to, but I really enjoy sand. It’s cool, is it easier on the joints too? Probably or I think so. So, I had um, I had a titanium rod put in my leg, my right leg. And since then, I have a hard time with lateral motion, specifically indoors on the hardwood floor. Because it’s pushing in, but the sand gives a little, uh, on me, so it’s not quite as harsh on it.

[ 00:31:55,880 ]So it’s been easier for me. Awesome, but I’m getting older, uh, and so it’s a little… I’m not, you know, when I’m jumping, my head’s not over the net anymore. It’s like my forehead. My arm is still up. My arm can still get up there. And I also play golf. Yeah, um, I played golf in high school. I got uh, I got pretty good at golf in high school. I didn’t play while I had children, because it’s expensive and takes time. Yeah. But my son came back this last summer and said, ‘Hey, Dad, if you teach me how to golf, I will mow your yard every week.’ It’s like done. That’s easy, right? Like you want to hang out with me once a week and you’ll mow my yard?

[ 00:32:37,930 ]All right, no problem. He’s he’s uh He went from not good in April to outdriving me by September. So maybe we have a problem. So the competitive juices have kind of kicked in a little bit. Well, that sounds like a good problem. Yeah, so I’m going to have to get better at that. Tell us about your family. Yeah, so my wife and I have been married 26 years now. We met in college, so first day of classes. Wow. Though, technically, we went to L. A. elementary school together. As I mentioned, my dad was a pastor in the United Methodist Church, and so we moved around quite a bit. And he was actually at a church in Upland, Indiana, where Kendra also grew up. Her parents both worked at Taylor.

[ 00:33:22,450 ]And so we were never in class together, but we were always in the school shows. So there are pictures of her on one side and me on the other. And apparently she had a Valentine from, like, third grade or something from all the kids, and there was one for me in there. I spelled her name wrong. Do you have a Y in there? Kendry. Yep. Call her Kendry. So we met. She knew of me when we got to Taylor and we connected and then got married. Actually, before we graduated. We had two kids. I’ve got a 22, she’s almost 23-year-old girl that just graduated from Belmont University. She works in the tourism industry for the Musicians Hall of Fame and the Country Music Hall of Fame. Oh, nice.

[ 00:34:18,540 ]Loves everything there is to do with 60s and 70s rock and roll, so uh, cool. She reads it, she’s in the right spot, yeah, yeah. She she is uh, um. Does she help curate the exhibits and that kind of stuff? Not so much. So she works in the gift shop in the Country Music Hall of Fame. And then at the Musicians Hall of Fame, she does do some, like, tour guide type things in there as well as helping on various other places. But, um, but yeah, so, uh, she’s, she’s a blast, a lot of fun. Uh, my son also ended up in, in music. So he’s a 20, just turned 20, and he’s up at St. Francis in Fort Wayne, Indiana, uh, at the, um, the music tech program there and uh, so he is studying to be a producer.

[ 00:35:00,880 ]Is that yeah, nice that’s that’s what he wants to do though. I got to go up last night and here he did his semester performance. Um, so that was fun to go see his band up there, uh, performing and that was pretty cool. What’d they play? Yes, so they played at Saint Francis. There’s a stadium or auditorium there, okay. Um, it was pretty decked out, lights the whole nine yards, and original or did they do it? No, they were doing all covers. Okay, and so what’d you get to hear? Uh, so everybody talks. Uh, he did that song. Um, a Benson Boone one. Um, I can’t remember the name of that one now. Um, He did like four. They did four. So they were pretty good. But he played lead guitar and sang.

[ 00:35:43,620 ]So it was fun to see. That is fun. He’s got a pretty good voice. But that’s fun. Nice. Yeah, we’re in the same stage. Yeah. It’s nice to have some time again. Yes. The MCNaster thing has been a shift. It’s a new idea. It’s pretty quiet. Yeah. I hate to tell you, sometimes I come back. Okay. For a while. Being in music, I’m kind of expecting that. So we’ll see. Yeah. Given the apartment rent and housing costs. Yeah. It’s like crazy. That’s awesome. I appreciate you coming on. Yeah, I really do. It was a lot of fun. It’s great hearing your story. Thanks. Yeah!